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#1
01-01-2018, 11:37 AM
 wethotuwuzatoad Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2017 Posts: 1
Help understanding this hint

Hello,

I'm a new user. Thanks for the great puzzles and for the help page at
http://logic-puzzles.org/how-to-solv...t=introduction

I'm currently working on the puzzle located here:
http://www.logic-puzzles.org/game.ph...39ec818d42409c
and shown in the following screenshot:

(Note: I posted the image online first: https://imgur.com/C0gS7HU and then noticed below that I could upload/attach the image directly so I did that as well. Is one method preferable over the other? Also, is there a way to insert an uploaded image among the text of my post?)

My 1st question regards the first line of the hint:

Quote:
 "If Rondo Fantasie is either Heidi or 26.3, and 26.3 does not equal..."
Should the part following the comma be interpreted as

"..., and IF 26.3 does not equal..."?
OR
"..., and SINCE 26.3 does not equal..."?

It's probably obvious but it seems a bit ambiguous to my Noob brain.

My 2nd question relates to the conclusion of the hint:

I had suspected some kind of connection between clues 8 & 9 since they both include 26.3 and contain two pairs of same-group possibilities (Rondo<>Turandot & Heidi<>Elsie). And I attempted to take methodical steps through the combined logic as follows:

(In the following, Turandot is shortened to Turan and Rondo Fantasie is shortened to Rondo
__________________________________________________

Given
Rondo = Heidi
OR
Rondo = 26.3
and
Patrick = Elsie and Turan = 26.3
OR
Patrick = 26.3 and Turan = Elsie
and
Rondo <> Turan (same group)
Heidi <> Elsie (same group)

Alternative #1
If Rondo = 26.3
then Rondo <> Heidi
and Turan <> 26.3 (since Rondo <> Turan)
so Turan = Elsie
and Patrick = 26.3
and Patrick = Rondo

Alternative #2
if Rondo = Heidi
then Rondo <> 26.3
and Rondo <> Elsie (since Heidi <> Elsie)
so Rondo <> Patrick
and Rondo <> Turan
__________________________________________________

I then looked for some conclusion common to both alternatives but did not find one.

The hint conclusion is that:

Rondo <> Elsie

which I did conclude in my second alternative above (Rondo = Heidi) but I could not/cannot get to the same conclusion in the first alternative (Rondo = 26.3).

In order to be certain of a particular conclusion, does it not first have to be concluded in all possible alternatives? And if so, what other steps will get me there in my first alternative?

Thanks
Attached Images
 2018-01-01b_logic-puzzles.png (283.4 KB, 17 views)
#2
01-01-2018, 02:04 PM
 Ella Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 15

I'm glad you asked this. We went through a slightly similar "visual clue" thread last month, and I've been getting stuck on precisely these things. So I'll be right back with a link to that thread and a plea for someone to one more time pound things into my brain.

What I'd imagine -- had a little trouble seeing all the clues, so I'm just taking a swipe at this - and smart help should be followed. Do not trust me on this! But all that being caveated, I'd imagine that the next clues would be to mark off Kelly & Naomi for the Rondo as well, since they are also not possibilities in that particular row [26.6].

But that's a guess, so I'll here's the link and we both will await some actual help. See if this thread helps you process this at all: http://www.logic-puzzles.org/forum/s...ead.php?t=1139

Every time I wrap my head around it, I manage to fall apart soon after and I come back to this thread and the another [see this help from the lovely & talented Serenia too http://www.logic-puzzles.org/forum/s...?t=1037&page=3 ] often to get my brain round it.

I came to ask a similar-ish question, but I'll do it separately. Welcome!

Last edited by Ella; 01-01-2018 at 02:10 PM. Reason: adding links
#3
01-01-2018, 02:40 PM
 serenia Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 30

Ella got it right! Naomi and Kelly can also be eliminated.

I think the hint is OK as stated - rather than inserting the IF or SINCE.

With this clue: "Rondo is either Heidi or 26.3", I first look to see if either of the alternatives has been excluded already. In your grid state, neither alternative has been excluded, so there is more work to do.

What women can Rondo be paired with? (start with women because Heidi is in the women category)

The clue explicitly says that Heidi is a possibility, but what women could be associated with 26.3? If a woman cannot be associated with 26.3, there is no way she can be associated with Rondo, right?

Yet another way of putting this is: "Rondo is either Heidi or the woman that is associated with 26.3."

Examine the grid to see if any women have already been excluded from 26.3. Elsie, Heidi, Naomi, and Kelly have been excluded. You can ignore Heidi because the clue explicitly allows for the association.

That leaves Elsie, Naomi, and Kelly. They cannot be associated with 26.3, so they don't have a way of being associated with Rondo.

So you've just added three more Xs. We're not done yet.

What points can Rondo be paired with? (points is the other category in the either/or part of the clue)

The clue says that 26.3 is a possibility, but what points could be associated with Heidi?

Rondo is either 26.3 or the points associated with Heidi.

The current grid state shows that Heidi can be associated with any points except 26.3, but that one is explicitly allowed in the clue. Too bad. We can't add any more Xs, but getting the first three Xs was actually pretty good.

Thanks for the link back to that other thread. These either/or clues are tough to understand at first, but once you can wrap your head around them, they get easier. After a while (and lots of practice on paper), you will be able to do these visually from the grid without having to labor through the actual logic.

In this example, your brain will be doing something like "copy the three Xs from 26.3 down to Rondo, and copy any Xs under Heidi over to Rondo.."

Last edited by serenia; 01-01-2018 at 02:59 PM.
#4
01-01-2018, 07:09 PM
 Ella Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 15

I'm going to take this in a slightly different direction. If it should be another thread entirely, let me know:

Suppose the 26.6 square hadn't been x'd out for Rondo fantasy. Is there any way to approach figuring that out rather than just ignoring it until you have more information?

Along similar lines, is there any trick for a clue that has two options in the same category? Making this up completely -- "of Bolero and Corey, one is Christina and the other is Bonita" -- I know I can x out all the options in the lower rows/columns and fill in as I figure things out, but might there be any trick for this sort of clue?
#5
01-02-2018, 07:03 AM
 serenia Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 30

Quote:
 Suppose the 26.6 square hadn't been x'd out for Rondo fantasy. Is there any way to approach figuring that out rather than just ignoring it until you have more information?
I might not be understanding your question, but here goes.

Clue 1 gives you the X for 26.6/Rondo.

20180102-Example1.PNG

Quote:
 Along similar lines, is there any trick for a clue that has two options in the same category? Making this up completely -- "of Bolero and Corey, one is Christina and the other is Bonita" -- I know I can x out all the options in the lower rows/columns and fill in as I figure things out, but might there be any trick for this sort of clue?
When an either/or clue has a pair of options in the same category, it is a lot easier to fill in the Xs.

For your example, first fill in the obvious X for the part that has two different categories.

20180102-Example2.PNG

Then fill in all the Xs for the part that involves only one category.

20180102-Example3.PNG

If you want to grind through the logic, you ask the same questions. In your example, you would ask which women are associated with Corey?

The clue makes it very explicit: Cristina and Bonita.

Which women are associated with Bolero?

Again, the clue makes it very explicit: Cristina and Bonita.

You don't have to worry about transitive relationships when the options are in the same category.

We're not done yet.

What songs are associated with Cristina and Bonita? Your clue example makes it explicit that Bolero can be associated, but can Corey be associated with all the songs? What happens if Corey cannot be associated with some of the songs?

I haven't put any restrictions on Corey's associations, but I'll do that in the next post.

And finally, what men can be associated with Cristina and Bonita? Your clue example makes it explicit that Corey can be associated, but can Bolero be associated with all the men? What happens if Bolero cannot be associated with some of the men?

Check out the next post.

BTW this is really a challenge to grind through the actual logic. It's a lot easier just to do this visually on the grid once you figure out the patterns for each subgrid.

Last edited by serenia; 01-02-2018 at 03:41 PM.
#6
01-02-2018, 07:41 AM
 serenia Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 30

Starting with your clue and the previous grid state..

Quote:
 Along similar lines, is there any trick for a clue that has two options in the same category? Making this up completely -- "of Bolero and Corey, one is Christina and the other is Bonita" -- I know I can x out all the options in the lower rows/columns and fill in as I figure things out, but might there be any trick for this sort of clue?
let's add a couple restrictions for Corey and Bolero. We add that Corey cannot be associated with the Kalinka song, and Bolero cannot be associated with Leonardo.

20180102-Example4.PNG

Now when we ask: "What songs can be associated with Bonita and Cristina?", there is a new restriction, and now neither Cristina nor Bonita have a chance of being associated with the Kalinka song. Remember, the clue says that Bonita and Cristina can only be associated with Bolero or the song that is associated with Corey.

20180102-Example5.PNG

Similiarly, when we ask: "What men can be associated with Bonita and Cristina?", there is a new restriction, and now neither Cristina nor Bonita have a chance of being associated with Leonardo. Remember, the clue says that Bonita and Cristina can only be associated with Corey or the man that is associated with Bolero.

20180102-Example6.PNG

I hope I got that right. It's pretty easy to mess up these examples.

Last edited by serenia; 01-02-2018 at 07:46 AM.
#7
01-02-2018, 03:23 PM
 Ella Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 15

Thanks serenia - very helpful. Much better than just staring at the empty squares -- my usual method.

Once I learned of the visual "answers", I went off the deep end thinking perhaps there would always be an easy way to mark off squares... Now that I really think about it, that's absurd. That's not logic, it's coloring!

OK, so what really helped me was your extra steps there. I knew to do the first post parts. For some reason, I never took it the next step, which is probably why I zip through puzzles then spend lots of time looking at two options for two people and no understanding of how I'm supposed to get the correct answer. Guessing is never kind to me when I do this.

Quote:
 Now when we ask: "What songs can be associated with Bonita and Cristina?"
and
Quote:
 Similiarly, when we ask: "What men can be associated with Bonita and Cristina?",
Heh. Here's an embarrassing admission: I don't always remember to look at it with that sort of open mind. Instead I just think, "I dunno..." My problem is that I want to fly without first learning to crawl. Sometimes it all clicks and that's beautifully satisfying. Some days - the last two have been like this: I simply can't make my brain work through the logic. Even just remembering to think in these questions will actually help me get it together, and I'm sure that others will find it helpful as well.

Last month when I clicked for clues, I was usually mystified. I usually can at least understand it now, even if I wouldn't have thought of it on my own just yet. I'm amazed at the way this all translates to other things - like my reading speed and comprehension are measurably better in a month of doing these puzzles.

I can't thank you enough, really! You're wonderful about helping out, and it's much appreciated! If I ever improve, I will certainly pay it forward.

Happy New Year

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