Logic Puzzle Forums Can someone please explain this hint?
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#11
11-07-2017, 07:23 AM
 loofadawg Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2017 Posts: 14

Quote:
 Originally Posted by carpboy I've come up with a method to scan those without having to think it through. Take the clue "Of cat and New York, one is orange and the other is Sam". I will do the following: cat NOT New York: Scan the cat column/row and note all the choices marked as impossible EXCEPT do not include New York in that group. Mark those same choices as impossible in the orange and Sam columns/rows. Do not use a square marked as proven correct, only those marked as proven impossible. Repeat for New York NOT cat: This time scanning the New York column/row for all items proven incorrect EXCEPT cat. Mark those same choices as impossible in the orange and Sam columns/rows. Repeat now as Orange NOT Sam, substituting into the cat/New York column/rows, and then finally (you get it now) Sam NOT orange, substituting into the cat/New York column/rows. Once you do it once or twice you get the pattern down, it is quite easy.
I am trying to apply this but maybe I am not understanding this properly. What happens to me is I end up marking something false that really should be marked true.

I understand how the a similar method works when the puzzle has a true component (the slides explain that one easy enough: if a=b and b not equal to c then a not equal to c") but the "of a and b one is c and one is d" trips me up.

Could somebody show a puzzle before and after when this is applied the way Carpboy explained it. I am a sad stupid Loofa
#12
11-07-2017, 11:55 AM
 elvelcro Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Posts: 1

Okay, this will have a few pics, and it's not the best example ever, but let's do this:
This is the puzzle in question. The pertinent question is circled.

Now, we mark that 2006 is not Kosovo, and 175 is not the byengo bat.

Now, looking at 175, there is a "no" marked in lisner cat from an earlier clue. This tells us that, since Kosovo and 2006 are EITHER 175 or byengo bat, then since lisner cat is NEITHER 175 NOR byengo bat, it cannot be either Kosovo or 2006. So we mark them both "no" for lisner cat, thusly:

A bit later on, we've learned some more about 2006:

Since Honduras is NEITHER 2006 NOR Kosovo, then it cannot be either byengo bat or 175. The same is true for Madagascar, so we mark "no"s for Honduras and Madagascar for both byengo bat and 175, which I will post in a subsequent comment.
#13
11-07-2017, 04:24 PM
 Qwertyuiopas Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2017 Posts: 1

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#14
11-07-2017, 07:13 PM
 carpboy Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2017 Posts: 19

Here is a puzzle I am currently working on. Sorry, can't get any inline images to work/

Here is the base puzzle. The clue in question is highlighted.

pic1

So the first thing you do is look at the 1st half of the conditions and mentally do "Zamora NOT #105", which means in the numbers box, note all the items that are marked impossible in the Zamora row, except #105. This would be 128 and 134.

pic2

The next image, those impossibilities are marked for the other half of the condition, fifth and Kermit.So in the row for fifth, mark 128 and 134 as impossible. For the column Kermit, do the same.

pic3

In the next image you are doing the reverse now, mentally looking for "#105 NOT Zamora", in the towns box.

pic4

Here are the results of this, they being Diamond Bar and Eagle Lake.

pic5

Now taking these results and making the fifth row impossible for these two, as well as the Kermit column.

pic6

Now all this repeats, but driven from the 2nd half of the conditional, fifth and Kermit.

This shows the expression "fifth NOT Kermit", yielding Bridget and Ophelia.This time, the results will be applied to Zamora and #105.

pic7

So now you can do this, Bridget and Ophelia being marked as impossible in rows Zamora and #105.

pic8

Finally, reverse the expression to "Kermit NOT fifth".

pic9

The next shows this, with the only usable impossibility being sixth. Mark sixth as impossible in the Zamora and #105 columns.

pic10

Here is the result.

pic11

It is nowhere as bad as the writeup looks, it is very straight forward.

Of A and B, one is C and the other D:

Apply A not B to C and D
Apply B not A to C and D
Apply C not D to A and B
Apply D not C to A and B.
#15
11-08-2017, 04:44 AM
 loofadawg Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2017 Posts: 14

I don't have a chance at the moment to read through it yet but I did want to say you all are the best. Cannot wait to analyze this.
#16
11-08-2017, 05:42 AM
 Ella Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 11

Thanks for taking the time to do all of this. I know it seems excruciating to those of you who do this almost by nature, but it really makes this "visual clue" thing even more clear. I tried doing it earlier and kept messing myself up by overthinking it. All of this help is awesome, and I must thank loofadawg for being brave enough to ask these questions in the first place. Really helpful! THANKS everyone!
#17
11-08-2017, 08:08 AM
 loofadawg Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2017 Posts: 14

Now I have a moment to look through the messages and I must say...

OMG... I thought I understood but was still interpreting it wrong. I mean my interpretation which was flawed helped but I really just lucked out. Now I get it. *happy dance*

We all learn differently. Some can get by with a brief description, some need something more beefy details. Loofas need pretty pictures to gnaw on.

I appreciate time everyone has put forth. And it seems it will others to *fist bumps Ella with paw*. Carpboys annotated pictures were the icing on the cake. I am going to print them out when I get off work.

Again, you guys are the best.
#18
11-08-2017, 08:22 AM
 carpboy Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2017 Posts: 19

when doing that demo I neglected to mention (totally unrelated) that a slightly rare 3x3 pseudo-pair was revealed.

Pic 12

pic 13
#19
11-10-2017, 12:58 PM
 loofadawg Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2017 Posts: 14

And so I read correctly the "A is either B or C" clue can be utilize the same technique?

Apply B is not C to A ?
#20
11-11-2017, 08:48 AM
 carpboy Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2017 Posts: 19

Quote:
 Originally Posted by loofadawg And so I read correctly the "A is either B or C" clue can be utilize the same technique? Apply B is not C to A ?
A is either B or C is real easy, just mark impossible all choices for A EXCEPT B and C.

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