View Full Version : I need an advanced technique here...

BillsBayou

04-08-2013, 05:46 PM

I've watched the YouTube Video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vz_kTUeaf1k), but none of the advanced techniques (appear) to help me with this one.

I've made one relational clue by combining clues:

Siren Loudness Decibels:

2007 is louder by 5 decibels than $120 which is louder than Rip Tide which is louder than 1994

Sadly, the 1994 model is the quietest. This leaves Rip Tide with two louder, one quieter, $120 with two quieter one louder, and 2007 with three quieter. Each of these then has 2 possible answers.

Anyone see anything else?

(See next reply for the attachment, sorry.)

BillsBayou

04-08-2013, 05:47 PM

Here's the screen capture (thought I had it before)

zenobia43

04-08-2013, 07:22 PM

This is a great one, and unless I'm not seeing this right, it really does require something not seen directly in the video of advanced techniques.

But first, let's use the technique shown in the video to show that 1997 cannot be $120. Then we can get to the really interesting part.

You are missing 9 Xs that you could get from the video.

The left side of clue 8 can never be $120 or $124, so that means 105 and 1997 can never be those values either. Now we have the part that really matters, but continue looking at each side of clues 8 and 9 to deduce what the other side can never be and fill in the Xs. I got 9.

Clue 8 gives us that SecureAlert cannot be 100 or 1994 and $124 cannot be 105 in addition to the ones mentioned above.

Clue 9 (after the Xs from above are in place) gives us that Armor-Stop cannot be 105, Rip-Tide cannot be $124, and 2000 cannot be 115 or $124.

So now that we know that 1997 cannot be $120 the fun begins. At first it looks like we're stuck again.

Look at 1997 and $120. They are both in rows 3 and 4. Can they be in the same row? Nope. 1997 cannot be $120. They have to be in different rows.

Clue 5 says that 2007 is one row below $120. If $120 is in row 3, then 2007 is in row 4, but since $120 and 1997 cannot be in the same row, 1997 must be in row 4. Oops! Can't have 1997 and 2007 in the same row.

So $120 must be in the fourth row, 2007 in the fifth row, and 1997 in the third row.

I think the solution is:

100 - Viking - 1994 - $160

105 - Rip Tide - 2000 - $145

110 - Securalert - 1997 - $140

115 - Armor-Stop - 2009 - $120

120 - Eco Alert - 2007 - $124

Check it out and see if you come up with the same solution.

If you do, then we can consider if this is one of those puzzles that required a "what if?" and if there is another path to the solution that doesn't require one.

BillsBayou

04-08-2013, 09:18 PM

The left side of clue 8 can never be $120 or $124, so that means 105 and 1997 can never be those values either. Now we have the part that really matters, but continue looking at each side of clues 8 and 9 to deduce what the other side can never be and fill in the Xs. I got 9.

Nice. In a 4 part either/or clue, make one side of the argument the overlapping eliminations from a single category.

Follow that logic, and since 1997 cannot be 100, 105, and 120, the overlap is 100 and 120. Eliminate those values from the $145 and Securalert. And that zaps 1994 and Secura by transposing values.

I can follow you along on the rest of processing clues 8 and 9

(SNIP)

Look at 1997 and $120. They are both in rows 3 and 4. Can they be in the same row? Nope. 1997 cannot be $120. They have to be in different rows.

Clue 5 says that 2007 is one row below $120. If $120 is in row 3, then 2007 is in row 4, but since $120 and 1997 cannot be in the same row, 1997 must be in row 4. Oops! Can't have 1997 and 2007 in the same row.

So $120 must be in the fourth row, 2007 in the fifth row, and 1997 in the third row.

That is quite the BANG getting over that one. But, yeah, it does look like a "What If" step.

You got the solution right on that one. Thanks for the advanced solving technique.

How would we write that up?

Technique: In a 4 part either/or clue, make one side of the argument the overlapping eliminations from a single category.

Categories CAT-A, CAT-B... are made up of{A1, A2..., A(n)}, {B1, ..., B(n)}...

Clue type: Of A(x) and B(x), one is C(x) and the other is D(x)

A(x) cannot be B(x); C(x) cannot be D(x) by definition of the clue type.

Find all eliminations on the grid for A(x) in category CAT-B. The result set is all non-A(x) values in CAT-A.

Example: For a given A1 and B1, under CAT-A we see that B1 cannot be A1 and A2. The resulting overlap set is {A2}

Expand the result set by comparing all eliminations in A(x) and B(x) across all the categories in the puzzle.

Example: For a given A1, B1, the matching eliminations are {A2, C2, C3, D4, E1, E5}. Thus, the values for the right side of the equation, C(x) D(x), cannot be any of the values in the result set.

Eliminate all occurrences of the result set from C(x) and D(x).

Repeat for all values of A(x) that cannot exist for B(x). Repeat entire process for C(x) and D(x).

zenobia43

04-09-2013, 01:53 AM

This particular puzzle had a clue of the type: "Of A and B, one is C, and the other is D."

The technique used for this type of clue also works for its one-sided version of the type: "A is either C or D."

Find out what elements of D that C can never be and what elements of C that D can never be, and then apply those exclusions to A.

You're finding out what the right side of the equation can never be and reflecting that on the left side.

Note that if the two elements on the right side are in the same category, you won't get any bonus Xs.

The clues of type: "Of A and B, one is C and the other is D", are a great place to go hunting for Xs.

Find out what the left side can never be and reflect that on the two elements of the right side, and then find out what the right side can never be and reflect that on the two elements of the left side.

"Find out what the left side can never be" means find the elements of B that A can never be, and find the elements of A that B can never be.

Graphically, you're just checking the row and column containing the A B intersection for bonus Xs.

If you process these types of clues a little later in the sequence, you will have more potential for those bonus Xs.

admin

04-09-2013, 02:42 AM

Just wanted to chime in here... no puzzle on the site ever requires "What if?" or trial and error. There is always a pure logical solution to every puzzle. (Of course, sometimes it is faster/easier to just do trial and error when you get stuck, and of course there's nothing wrong with that!)

Anyhow, for this puzzle, here's a quick illustration showing one possible "pure logic" solution to the puzzle at what I feel is probably its most difficult point. In this case it required two advanced solving techniques used side-by-side in order to break the puzzle and result in a successful solve.

23

Hope this helps!

BillsBayou

04-09-2013, 02:55 PM

Thanks for those!

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